Journals of the Senate
52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 70
Tuesday, June 17, 2003
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, *LaPierre, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., tabled the following:
Reply to Question No. 7, dated February 4, 2003, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, respecting the Anti-terrorism Act (Bill C-36, 1st Session, 37th Parliament).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-524S.
Reply to Question No. 122, dated March 18, 2003, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Stratton, respecting an independent office of the Ethics Counsellor.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-525S.
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With leave,
The Senate reverted to Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Banks moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources have power to sit at 5:00 p.m. today, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Second reading of Bill C-35, An Act to amend the National Defence Act (remuneration of military judges).
The Honourable Senator Bryden moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pearson, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 5 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Second reading of Bill C-47, An Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 2004.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lavigne, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Léger, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Third reading of Bill C-44, An Act to compensate military members injured during service.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Forrestall, that the Bill be read the third time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Forrestall for the Honourable Senator Meighen moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Third reading of Bill C-31, An Act to amend the Pension Act and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act.
The Honourable Senator Morin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser, that the Bill be read the third time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.
SPEAKER'S RULING
During last evening's sitting, Senator Nolin spoke on the third reading motion of Bill C-28, a budget implementation bill. During the course of his remarks, he proposed an amendment to delete certain lines at clause 64 on page 55 of the bill. The effect of the amendment was to delete the entire clause.
Senator Murray then intervened to explain his interpretation of the significance of this deletion. As he put it, "the effect of the amendment that Senator Nolin has proposed would be to allow the Federal Court judgment to operate across the board, as it were, to all those school boards that would be affected by that judgment.'' As if anticipating a possible point of order, Senator Murray went on to provide some information about the somewhat confusing views expressed in the parliamentary authorities. At the same time, however, he seemed to express the opinion that, in the end, the amendment was not out of order.
Senator Murray's participation was prescient for it just preceded, a point of order that was raised by Senator Carstairs, the Leader of Government who suggested that the amendment "is in substance exactly the amendment that was raised last week, which Your Honour declared to be out of order.''
Senator Murray then spoke again to offer a more detailed statement of his position with respect to the point of order. After reviewing numerous precedents he noted that "there are a number of things that can be done in the context of a bill of this kind that are perfectly in order, and perfectly consistent with both the constitutional and parliamentary tradition and practice in this Parliament.'' He then went on to list some of those options available.
I want to thank Honourable Senators for their intervention. I have reviewed the matter and I am ready to rule on this point of order.
In assessing the merits of this point of order, it was necessary to take into account that the Senate is currently debating the third reading motion of a bill. Senate practices, acknowledged in our own Rules of the Senate, make it clear that it is possible to amend clauses at third reading. In addition, it is even possible to move the reconsideration of any clause at this stage so long as the bill is still before the Senate. This is provided for in rule 77. The fact that we are reconsidering an amendment on clause 64 does not, in and of itself, make the amendment out of order. I do not think that was the rationale behind Senator Carstairs' objection.
Instead, I believe that the thrust of the Senator's objection is that the amendment itself is out of order because it infringes the financial initiative of the Crown with respect to the authorization of expenditures. This was the substance of my ruling during last Friday's sitting to which Senator Carstairs referred.
In this case, however, whatever the results of the amendment, it is not identical to the proposal that was made last week. That amendment sought to insert a phrase in clause 64 at the end of line 19 on page 55: "into force on December 17, 1990, except in respect of cases in which school authorities and lawyers representing Her Majesty in right of Canada, have agreed to file consents to judgment before the appropriate court''. I interpreted that as an amendment to the bill which involved the expenditure of money. The amendment moved by Senator Nolin may or may not have the same effect, Senator Murray explained what that effect might be, but it is certainly in a different form from last week's amendment proposed by Senator Beaudoin.
The parliamentary authorities are consistent in recognizing the procedural validity of any amendment to a bill that seeks to delete a clause. For example, the most recent Canadian manual of practice, Marleau and Montpetit states at page 666 "... since 1968 when the rules relating to report stage came into force, a motion in amendment to delete a clause from a bill has always been considered by the Chair to be in order, even if such would alter or go against the principle of the bill as approved at second reading...''
In the Senate, our rules and practice are equally generous with respect to amendments. There are numerous examples that could be cited as Senator Murray himself did last evening. Consequently, it is my ruling that the amendment moved by Senator Nolin is in order. Third reading debate on Bill C-28 and the amendment can proceed.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the third reading of Bill C-28, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 18, 2003,
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Nolin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 64, on page 55,
(a) by deleting lines 11 to 39; and
(b) by renumbering clauses 65 to 130 as clauses 64 to 129, and any cross-references thereto accordingly.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Bolduc moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Spivak, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 4 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin, for the second reading of Bill S-14, An Act to amend the National Anthem Act to reflect the linguistic duality of Canada.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Lapointe, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gauthier, for the second reading of Bill S-18, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (lottery schemes).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., for the Honourable Senator LaPierre moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 7 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Second reading of Bill C-411, An Act to establish Merchant Navy Veterans Day.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Biron, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lavigne, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the consideration of the Fourth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights entitled: Enhancing Canada's Role in the OAS: Canadian Adherence to the American Convention on Human Rights, tabled in the Senate on May 28, 2003.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that further debate on the consideration of the Report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 4 to 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the consideration of the Seventh Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology (document entitled: Santé en français — Pour un meilleur accès à des services de santé en français (French-Language Healthcare — Improving Access to French-Language Health Services)) tabled in the Senate on December 12, 2002.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Chaput moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill, that further debate on the consideration of the Report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the consideration of the Fifth Report (Interim) of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, entitled: The Myth of Security at Canada's Airports, deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on January 21, 2003.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Banks for the Honourable Senator Atkins moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu, that further debate on the consideration of the Report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Other
Orders No. 104, 86 (motions), 9 (inquiry), 130, 126, 5 (motions), 2, 14 (inquiries), 66, 121, 122 (motions), 16 (inquiry) and 115 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton calling the attention of the Senate to the Budget presented by the Minister of Finance in the House of Commons on February 18, 2003.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Stratton for the Honourable Senator Robertson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 6, 11, 15, 21 (inquiries), 92 (motion) and 22 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton:
That this House calls upon the Government of Canada:
(a) to recognize the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 and to condemn any attempt to deny or distort this historical truth as being anything less than a genocide;
(b) to designate the fourth Saturday in November of every year throughout Canada as a day of remembrance of the more than seven million Ukrainians who fell victim to the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide 1932-33; and
(c) to call on all Canadians, particularly historians, educators and parliamentarians, to include the true facts of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 in the records of Canada and in future educational material.
GIVEN THAT the Genocide of Ukrainians (now commonly referred to as the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 and referred to as such in this Motion) engineered and executed by the Soviet regime under Stalin to destroy all opposition to its imperialist policies, caused the deaths of over seven million Ukrainians in 1932 and 1933;
THAT on November 26, 1998, the President of Ukraine issued a Presidential Decree establishing that the fourth Saturday in November be a National Day of Remembrance for the victims of this mass atrocity;
THAT the fourth Saturday in November has been recognized by Ukrainian communities throughout the world as a day to remember the victims of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 and to promote the fundamental freedoms of a democratic society;
THAT it is recognized that information about the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 was suppressed, distorted, or wiped out by Soviet authorities;
THAT it is only now that some proper and accurate information is emerging from the former Soviet Union about the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33;
THAT many survivors of the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33 have immigrated to Canada and contributed to its positive development;
THAT Canada condemns all war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocides;
AND THAT Canadians cherish and defend human rights, and value the diversity and multicultural nature of Canadian society.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., for the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon:
That, pursuant to Rule 95(3)(a), the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights be authorized to sit on Mondays beginning September 15, 2003, on its study of the examination of key legal issues affecting the subject of on-reserve matrimonial real property on the breakdown of a marriage or common law relationship, even though the Senate may then stand adjourned.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Banks moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources be empowered, in accordance with Rule 95(3)(a), to sit during the traditional summer adjournment of 2003, even though the Senate may then be adjourned for a period exceeding one week, until such time as the Senate is ordered to return.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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Ordered, That Order No. 1 under ORDERS OF THE DAY, OTHER BUSINESS, Commons Public Bills, set down on the Orders of the Day for the next sitting, be brought forward.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Biron, for the second reading of Bill C-411, An Act to establish Merchant Navy Veterans Day.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Day moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cordy, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 5:09 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The name of the Honourable Senator Setlakwe substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Jaffer (June 17).
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications
The name of the Honourable Senator Corbin substituted for that of the Honourable Senator LaPierre (June 17).